Episode: Have a Bad Boss? Do This

Michael Hyatt: Hi, I’m Michael Hyatt.

Megan Hyatt Miller: And I’m Megan Hyatt Miller.

Michael:  And this is Lead to Win, our weekly podcast to help you win at work and succeed at life. In this episode, we’re going to show you what to do when you work for a bad boss. Wah-wah.

Megan: Man, this can be so frustrating, whether you’re dealing with poor communication or no decision-making (one of my personal bad boss favorites) or a leader who abdicates or who is humiliating. They go on tirades. They deliver public criticism. They have unrealistic expectations. Those are all really, really challenging things to deal with on a daily basis, but there are ways to deal with them effectively. Today, we have five ways to deal with a bad boss that we’re going to share with you.

Michael: By the way, for those of you who are bosses, there’s an ear you need to be listening with. Not just how to work for a bad boss but how not to be that guy, that bad boss. So, we have Larry in the studio with us today, as always, and he’s going to guide us through this conversation. Welcome, Larry.

Larry: Thanks, guys. Let’s just get right to it. Give me your best bad boss story.

Megan: There are so many to choose from. Probably my worst job ever, I was an assistant to a music industry executive.

Michael: What was his name? Just kidding.

Megan: Her name, actually. She would fall under the humiliating. She kind of ruled with shame and fear. I have never met anybody like her except she kind of resembled The Devil Wears Prada character who was played by Meryl Streep. She literally yelled. She would not communicate her expectations and then scream at you when you didn’t meet them. I went home every day in tears for about two weeks, and then I finally quit. I was like, “This is psychologically abusive.”

Michael: The crazy thing about that was a couple of your sisters worked for that same person, one of them with similar results, and one of them somehow managed to navigate it.

Megan: It’s interesting. One of the things she did to have retention is she was super generous. So if you had a baby or you had a birthday, she would give big, lavish gifts or parties on your behalf. It was like an abusive relationship kind of thing. She kept you hooked in with the stuff but made you pay for it on the back side.

Michael: I’ve had so many bad bosses. Honestly, I think I’ve only worked for one really good boss, and he was really great. I mean, terrific. I’ve talked about him on the show before, Robert Wolgemuth, who ended up being my business partner. I worked for a guy in college who humiliated me publicly. That was the worst, because my worst nightmare is to be humiliated in public, to be embarrassed in public, and he was terrific at that.

Then I worked for a guy who was a micromanager, who required me at the end of every day to submit a detailed time report of exactly where my time had gone. It took me longer to fill out that report than actually do the work I was supposed to be doing. I quit that job after six months. I just couldn’t handle it. It was a very, very great job that I had wanted for a long time. I just couldn’t handle that level of micromanagement.

Then I worked for a guy who was very… I would describe him as (see if you know this word) mercurial. We just never knew what the weather was going to be when we walked into his office. Sometimes he would ream out people with little self-awareness, to the humiliation of everybody. It was so bad that everybody was embarrassed, not just the person who got reamed out.

Megan: By the way, one of the most psychologically distressing things is someone who’s unpredictable like that.

Michael: Yeah. Totally. Sometimes he was affable and a blast to be with and you thought, “Oh my gosh! It’s such a joy to work for this person.” But you just never knew. Yeah, I have a lot of stories like that.

Larry: Those are some pretty good bad boss stories. We have a couple that may top that in the stack today from some listeners. We’ll get to those along the way. As we said at the outset, maybe you have worked for a bad boss, but you want to listen up too if you are a boss, because there is something for you here as well. So, five steps to dealing with a bad boss. First is to manage your expectations.

Michael: I remember seeing years ago… I think it was on 60 Minutes. They were trying to find the happiest country in the world. They find out this particular year it was Denmark. So they’re doing some of these “man on the street” interviews, and they interview this guy and ask, “Why do you think Denmark, as it turns out, is the happiest place on earth?” The guy responds. He says, “Low expectations.” I think it’s really true.

One of the downsides of reading business books and leadership books and going to business conferences is that it raises your expectations. It wouldn’t be so bad if it was just for yourself, but it raises your expectations of what you want in a boss. By those kinds of standards, those kinds of ideals, every boss is going to fall short because every boss is human.

Every boss is going to have their pluses and their minuses and their faults and their foibles. You just have to be careful about not having too high of expectations. I’m not saying you should settle, but I am saying don’t be surprised or don’t be shocked when a boss fails you in some way, because probably you’re going to do the same thing for your people, and I think, for all of us, we want to exercise grace.

Megan: Part of this I agree with and part of it I don’t agree with.

Michael: Love it. Could we have a fight?

Megan: I know. You always want a fight.

Michael: I know. I enjoy that.

Larry: I forgot to bring my whistle.

Megan: It’s a podcast, not a boxing ring. On the one hand… I mean, you and I are both bosses, so we hope our people…

Michael: Have low expectations.

Megan: If not low expectations, reasonable ones, because, certainly, we have bad days and we fail at things and there are areas we’re more or less competent at. On the other hand, I hope what we’re not saying is that you should just have reasonable expectations for being abused at work.

Michael: No. No, no. That’s not okay.

Megan: That’s going to lead to health problems, relationship disintegration at home, all kinds of negative things. We’re going to get into this later, but we’re not saying you should just learn how to deal with a bad boss and kind of tolerate it.

Michael: Okay. I have an example of that very thing. I had a boss at one point… I forgot about this boss when I was going through my litany of bad bosses, but this was perhaps the worst incident of this at all. I had a boss do a “reply all” to me and to all of my direct reports when we missed some numbers on our division. He basically said, “What the [bleep] happened? How could you fail to accomplish your plan? This is completely unacceptable.” He went through a whole blizzard, a torrent of stuff, and embarrassed me not only… It would have been bad enough if he had just done it to me, but he did it on email, and he did it with all of my direct reports.

Megan: That’s horrible. It’s unacceptable.

Michael: I went home just… I said to Gail, “This is unbelievable. I can’t believe this guy did this.” I said, “I feel like I have to say something to him.” So I mustered the courage. It was not easy, because it felt like I was really at risk, putting myself at risk, but I called him on the phone. He lived in another city, and I called him on the phone and said, “Hey, you know that thing yesterday when we had that email exchange and you said what you said? I want you to know that’s completely unacceptable. You diminished me in front of my direct reports. You undermined my leadership.”

I said, “I’m just going to tell you right now, if that happens again, I will resign on the spot.” I said, “I’m not trying to be dramatic, but I’m saying that is unacceptable behavior.” The amazing thing about it was, in this particular case, he didn’t realize until that moment that he had replied all, so then he was embarrassed and he was so apologetic. But I felt like it was sort of necessity.

That’s not something that’s easy for me to do. I’ve only done it a few times in my career, but I felt like it was important for my integrity to be able to establish those boundaries. So I’m just agreeing with you that we’re not talking about lowering your expectations to the point where you’re willing to be abused. There are times when you have to speak out for the sake of your own leadership.

Megan: Or quit. You may not be able to do it immediately, but you need to have integrity and you need to have standards about what you’re willing to tolerate.

Michael: But you have to give people the benefit of the doubt. Your mom is the best at this. She’s an Enneagram Seven, for those of you who know what that is, so she always has the positive spin. She’s always saying (Bob Goff says this too), “What’s the least creepy explanation for that behavior?” You can kind of invent this narrative that somebody got up and, with malicious intent, determined they were going to hurt you that day. That’s not how the world works, generally. When people hurt us or disappoint us it’s usually accidental, so give people the benefit of the doubt, but speak up if it’s necessary too.

Larry: Step one in dealing with a bad boss: manage your expectations. Step two is evaluate the impact. I want to pause here to share a bad boss story from one of our listeners named Kinsley (9:34). She shares this story: “My worst boss experience has been working for someone who had no interest in taking feedback or valuing the input of his team members. The team members were a phenomenal group of high-performing individuals, but there is nothing they could say to have a value-added input to the boss.”

That’s frustrating. I think we’ve all been in situations like that, but it’s probably a little different than the situation you just related or the one you shared at the outset, Megan. Not all bad bosses are created equal. Talk about the various kinds of impact they can have and how you might respond.

Megan: In our examples at the beginning, we’re really talking about people who are abusive. That’s on one end of the spectrum. Probably on the other end of the spectrum is incompetent. They don’t know how to lead and, therefore, don’t set their direct reports and the rest of their team up for success. Things like being inaccessible, for example, which can produce a lot of frustration for people…not providing direction, not providing feedback. All of those things are either areas of incompetence or something else. It’s not as egregious as being abusive, but it is certainly frustrating.

Michael: Like the micromanaging example I gave. That definitely was not abusive. Or I had another boss who was so unreliable that when I would get to his office for my one-on-ones each week, half the time he was either late or just didn’t show up. He was busy and canceled the meeting after I had driven to another campus where that building was located to meet with him. That’s not an abusive one either, but you have to evaluate the impact.

Megan: You need to know what you’re dealing with and how serious it is.

Michael: The reason that’s important is because each one of these may require a different response. For example, in an abusive situation, it may require that you put your big boy pants on and go in and have an adult conversation with that abusive boss. On the other hand, it may require (this is the opposite end of the spectrum) that you just learn to be more patient and tolerate it, because you’re not going to fix everything in every personality you’re dealing with. Some things are just things we have to manage around or manage through, and we can’t blow up the entire situation because it happens to annoy us.

Megan: It’s also probably important to say… On the other end of the spectrum you have incompetent. You also have just different. There are different personality types. They may not be quite a “bad” boss, but it could be a difficult boss for you, someone who’s really structured if you’re not really structured or someone who is maybe less structured and you happen to be a big planner and rigid in the way you think about things and you want a lot of direction and a lot of clarity that may be less possible.

That’s going to be really common, actually. It requires a different kind of response to deal with someone who’s just wired differently than you are, who’s not incompetent, not abusive, not overbearing and micromanaging; they’re just different than you are, and you have to figure out how to speak a language that is maybe, for you, a second language.

Michael: That’s where you can also transform what looks like a negative into a positive. This is one of the things we love about personality tests. We did an entire episode on this, and we’ll drop it in the show notes. We talked about personality tests. It moves you from a place of being annoyed to a place of appreciation. Maybe my boss is a certain personality type that requires him or her to be really focused on the details, and that’s just not me. That’s just how we’re different, and it’s probably a good thing.

It’s a gift to the organization that they have that, and it’s good that we’re not all the same. Again, it’s all part of evaluating the impact and being honest about it. Where I’ve seen this the worst is where people are unwilling to confront bad behavior because they’re afraid to confront bad behavior, so they think, “Well, it’s just me. I just need to develop more patience.” This is why people stay in abusive relationships. They put it all on themselves instead of looking at it objectively.

Larry: Step one in dealing with a bad boss is to manage your expectations. Step two is evaluate the impact. Step three: consider your options. You’ve outlined already a few of these possible options you could take. I want to share with you a couple of bad boss stories from our listeners and see what advice you would give in this situation.

This one is from Tom. He says, “I was helping my new boss that we had acquired through an acquisition. I was giving him the lay of the land, the political pitfalls, and so on. He flew in to see me, and for the next four hours, in the hotel lobby, in front of everyone, he yelled at me, telling me he was going to fire me. Within about 10 minutes, I figured out the problem. He thought I was trying to take his job.”

Michael: Wow.

Megan: Yikes!

Larry: What advice would you give to Tom, or in a situation like that, where someone publicly humiliates you, maybe because they’re intimidated by you?

Michael: This is where you have to evaluate the range of options. I think this is highly contextual. What other options do you have? Is the only other option to quit and be unemployed? I know that’s the big fear that people hold out, but I’m just saying you have to be very deliberate about this. For me, here’s what that would look like. I probably wouldn’t respond in the moment. I’d be tempted to.

Megan: I don’t think I would sit there for four hours, though.

Michael: Not for four hours. No.

Megan: If I knew 10 minutes in that somebody thought I was after their job and that’s why they were berating me, I think I would interrupt the moment and just say, “Wait a second.”

Michael: I think this is the difference between you and me, though. I think you’re more intuitive and you see things more clearly immediately. For me, I need more processing time. I’m not saying it’s four hours, but, for me, it wouldn’t be good if I just flew off the handle at the first spark that flew. I’d be better to sit there and take a deep breath and put a little space between that stimulus and my response. I would trust you more than I would trust me in that situation.

I do think we train people how to treat us. If we don’t speak up in that situation, we’re going to get more of that. That’s why I felt it necessary in the example I gave before of the boss who did the “reply all” and embarrassed me with the email. My fear was if I didn’t speak up I was just going to get more of that, and that was unacceptable. I couldn’t lead that way. Plus I had other options.

So you have to decide, “Can I tolerate this or not?” That’s a legitimate option in some situations, where somebody maybe occasionally does something like that. Maybe they’re kidding and they embarrass you. I’ll say, “Well, they were having a bad day” or “That was just a bad judgment on their part. I’m not going to confront that; I’m going to tolerate it.”

Megan: I will say, as a boss, I would rather somebody bring something to me than to not know about it and, for example, embarrass someone. First of all, I never intentionally do that. It’s an ethical thing from my perspective, but I would want to know. I’m sure there are things I don’t do as well as I could, and I want my people to come to me and coach up, so to speak, tell me what I can do to help set them up for success.

If you have a boss who’s receptive, maybe not up to snuff in some area but would be willing to hear your feedback, then coaching up and providing some feedback can be really helpful. You probably see things they don’t see, and that’s certainly how I feel about my direct reports. They experience me and my leadership in a different way than I do, for sure. But that’s not always possible. Sometimes you’re dealing with someone who just doesn’t have the emotional intelligence or humility, or whatever, to accept feedback, and then you’re looking at a confrontation that needs to happen.

Michael: One of the things that can help the coaching up, whether it becomes coaching up or confrontation, is ask for permission. “There’s something I’d like to share with you, but I want your permission to speak freely.” Well, then if they say “Yes” they’re opening themselves up to what you have to say.

I would say if it is the confrontation, again, you have to assume the benefit of the doubt. What I would do is say, “Look. I’m sure you didn’t intend this, but here was the result.” I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt. I’m assuming it was a bad day or poor judgment or something else, but I also want to confront it. I don’t just want to let it slide. I’ve had employees do that with me before, including you, and it’s enormously helpful.

As a boss, to go back to your prior point, it’s really helpful to open yourself up to this kind of feedback, because your executive coach, if you have one, is not going to be able to see the things they’re going to see. Your peers are not going to see the things that the people who are working for you are going to see. The more you can open yourself up to that sort of 360-degree input, the better off you’re going to be as a leader. So I would welcome that.

Megan: In my own experience, almost all, if not all of the stupid things I’ve done as a boss, the bad boss moments I’ve had, have been unconscious. For that reason, I’m grateful for the benefit of the doubt, because usually, when someone comes to me and shares something with me, I’m mortified because it was not intentional or I didn’t realize I said something in the wrong context and I absolutely want to fix it. That’s not always going to be the case, but a lot of us do stupid stuff by mistake, not intention.

Larry: Well, let’s go to another bad boss story. This one is from Carrie. “Walking into an important client meeting, my boss said, ‘I was out at a bar with the client’s IT team last night, and we were discussing which girls from the firm are calendar-worthy.’ I was just 25 years old at the time, and I still cringe all these years later.” What do you do in that situation, or what advice would you give, where the boss is making inappropriate remarks, at least inappropriate remarks? What do you do?

Megan: That’s 100 percent an HR situation to me. I would go directly to HR. I would not confront the boss about it. If there’s a power differential, absolutely not. I would go to HR and report it, and then I would stay on it with HR. It would need to come to some kind of satisfactory resolution if I’m the employee in that situation.

Michael: I would probably disagree with you on the first step. I would go to the boss. I know there’s a power differential, but I think I would go to the boss for my own leadership, because I think I need to be courageous enough to confront it. If I didn’t get a response there, like immediate repentance, a full turnaround and an apology, then I would definitely go to HR.

Megan: That just assumes, though, a level of confidence in the security of your own position, that there’s not going to be retaliation. This may just be a gender difference here. I think I would do that, probably, in my situation, but I can see a lot of situations where that would be difficult, and that’s what HR is for, to have those uncomfortable conversations and confront people when they’re in violation of ethics and conduct guidelines. So I just would never hesitate to go to HR.

Larry: Step one in dealing with a bad boss is mange your expectations. Step two: evaluate the impact. Step three: consider your options. Step four: be assertive. We’ve just been talking a little bit about how assertive to be, and I want to give you another bad boss story and get your reaction to it. This is from James, another one of our listeners.

He writes, “I was the head of finance for a $10 million organization. The owner was trying to get larger contracts, and one day he asked me, ‘Can’t you just make it look like we’re doing 20 million?’ I told him that was fraud, and he said, ‘I’m going to call our lawyers and our accountant, and if you’re wrong, this is going to cost you your job.’ Well, needless to say, I resigned on the spot. I came in the next day to gather my stuff, and by then he had come to his senses.” Apparently, James was able to keep his position and that questionable reporting never took place. Would you have done the same thing in a similar situation?

Michael: Yes, I would have, and I’ve done a similar thing three different times I could tell about. For any leader, there’s going to come a point where you have to put all of your poker chips in the middle of the table and bet the farm, including your job. There’s an integrity issue that requires that. It’s never easy, but it becomes a defining moment in your leadership where you have clear boundaries. It’s usually around some kind of ethical issue. Obviously, it depends on the industry you’re working in or the context.

The problem with it is if you’re going to create change, it’s probably going to take that kind of leverage to enact it. In other words, you think, “Well, I’m not going to do the courageous thing. I’m not going to confront this. I’m going to just try to be an influence,” and that usually doesn’t work. There’s a certain kind of boss or certain kind of situation that even if the outcome is bad, for the sake of your own integrity you have to do it.

Megan: You at least have to be willing to walk away. Even if the ultimate conclusion is that you don’t, you have to be willing to walk. You have to have standards that at some point it’s the point of no return and you’re out.

Michael: We have to evaluate the impact, again, to go back to the previous point. Not everything is worth staking your job on. I can remember distinctly in one situation… It was in the publication of a book. For ethical reasons, I didn’t want to publish the book, because the author wasn’t ethical and I felt like we were aligning ourselves with that author. When I went to my boss and said, “Look. I don’t want to publish this book…” I said, “I’m not trying to grandstand. I’ve never done this in my entire history as a publishing professional, but this is one of those things where if you decide to go forward with the book, I have to resign. I just can’t allow myself to be aligned with this.”

Despite the fact that I said, “I’m not trying to grandstand,” he said to me, “I think you’re just trying to grandstand. This is not that big of a deal, and I want you to overcome it.” Thankfully, his boss supported me and said, “No. You’re totally right. We’re not going to publish that book.” But for about 24 hours I thought I was going to lose my job. In fact, I went back after that meeting with my immediate supervisor, when I said I was going to have to resign and he was not receptive to me at all, and said to my assistant, “I think we need to start packing me up.” Literally, I fully expected I was going to be out of there by the next day.

Larry: We’re talking about what to do if you work for a bad boss and, secondarily, how not to be a bad boss. So far, we’ve talked about these steps: manage your expectations, evaluate the impact, consider your options, and be assertive. That brings us to step five: support them publicly.

Megan: This is kind of an interesting one, and you and I may disagree a little bit on this. First of all, what I think is important about this point is that it’s not usually very effective to confront or shame someone publicly, whether it’s your boss or not your boss. It doesn’t really matter. But especially if they’re your boss, the level of humiliation is going to be greater to be reproved by a subordinate in public. That’s just not a very good persuasive strategy, so I think that’s important.

I also don’t think it means you say what they’re doing is good and lie about it. That, to me, is where this gets tricky and we have to be really careful, because there’s an integrity question here. If you were to go around, for example, talking about your bad boss to your peers or to others in the organization, talking about how great they are, that would be out of integrity.

That’s kind of like a codependent behavior of managing someone’s image for them in a way that is destructive to everyone. I don’t think that’s what we’re advocating for here. We’re just saying there’s an effective way of dealing with this that works best when you’re challenging them in private rather than gossiping about them in public.

Michael: The key thing I’m trying to avoid is the gossip about them in public. There can exist in an organization a kind of drift or a set of files about somebody, and people only bring out the bad stories. Most of us don’t work for Hitler. We don’t work for a person who’s so corrupt in their character that everything they do is bad. Usually there’s a mix of good and bad. I’m just saying that sometimes we can bring balance to people’s perception by pointing out that person’s contribution. Again, not out of alignment with our integrity, but the honest contribution they’re making.

One of the bosses I had who was a bad boss was like that. There were some things he did that were borderline abusive and bad boss behavior, but he also did a lot of amazing things and accomplished a lot of amazing things in terms of business and for his employees. So I just tried to keep the balance. The thing I purposed was that I was not going to hesitate to speak to him privately about the bad things, but I never wanted him to question my loyalty. I wanted to be able to speak well of him in public, but privately, I wanted to be able to confront him and have influence with him. That’s generally a good practice. Public support leads to private influence.

Megan: The other thing to keep in mind is that, oftentimes, gossiping is a way to relieve the stress of something you don’t like without having to exercise the courage to actually deal with it. So just question yourself when you’re thinking about how to handle this, publicly or privately. Oftentimes, we don’t want to deal with it privately because it’s way harder. It’s way easier to just make a snide, offhanded comment or to snicker under your breath while your boss is speaking. It’s way harder to set the appointment and go into their office and actually deal with it. The truth is that good leaders are brave, and you need to hold your own feet to the fire on this one and deal with it if there’s a problem.

Michael: Totally agree.

Larry: I have one more bad boss story, and that will lead us into our sixth action in dealing with a bad boss. It’s from Wendy. She shares, “I had been asked to take on a significant leadership role with a budget of $50 million a year to lead a huge transformation. We hit every milestone, even all of our stretch goals. Then I heard through the grapevine that my boss was planning to post my position. I confronted her, and it turned out to be true. She told me she wanted someone with more experience, which I understood to mean older, because I’m rather young compared to my peers.

Well, it was devastating. I’d built my team of over 50 people from the ground up and delivered impossible goals and was having such a great time doing it.” That’s bad, but she goes on to say this: “It was terrible at the time, but I have never had such a growth period personally as I did going through what I did.” That brings us to number six: learn from the experience. Wendy was able to do that. Do you think most people can learn through a bad boss experience?

Michael: It depends on your worldview. I happen to have a worldview that says nothing happens by accident, that every bad thing that happens to me can have a purpose if I make it so and can lead to good consequences, either to test my character or inform me of something, and particularly, in the case of leadership, you can learn a lot more from a bad boss than you can from a good one sometimes. It has forced me, in working with bad bosses… There are certain things I don’t want to ever have show up in my leadership, and it has led me to question, “Okay. What would be a better way to do that?”

So to ask the question, “What’s the gift in this?” even when you’re working for a really, really bad person… Maybe it’s just perseverance. Maybe it’s develop patience. Maybe it’s to give you a vivid example that you’ll never forget of what you don’t want to become in your own leadership. If you’re open and teachable and realize everything that comes to you in life can be sort of plowed under as fertilizer and used for your own growth, that can be a really good thing.

Megan: I totally agree. I think all the time about the bad bosses I’ve had and how they made me feel when they exhibited certain bad behavior, whether it’s incompetence or micromanaging or abusive behaviors. All of those things are visceral checks for me, as a leader. When I find myself with the impulse to do any of those things, I’ve been there. I know what it feels like, and I don’t want the people who are working for me to have that same experience. It’s great accountability, honestly. I wouldn’t trade those memories for anything.

Larry: Today we’ve learned that sooner or later you’ll probably work for a bad boss. You need to be prepared to handle it, and we found some ways to do that.

  1. Manage your expectations.
  2. Evaluate the impact.
  3. Consider your options.
  4. Be assertive.
  5. Support them publicly.
  6. Learn from the experience.

Michael and Megan, what are your final thoughts for our listeners?

Megan: It’s really important that you don’t ignore the experience of having a bad boss, both because you can’t afford it in the present… If you just kind of endure it and don’t really think about it and don’t have a plan of action for how to deal with it, it could be really damaging to you personally, but also because you’ll miss the lessons, and you want those for later. In both cases, it’s important to pay attention, to be thoughtful about what’s happening and why it’s happening and what it means for you, and then to act in a way that’s appropriate, and don’t forget it later.

Michael: I like that. The other thing is just to ask yourself the question, “How can I respond in this situation so that years from now, when I’m looking back on it, I’ll be proud of myself?” Usually that doesn’t look like gossip. It doesn’t look like cowardice. How can I look back on it and say, “You know what? I’m proud of the way I responded to that bad boss situation”?

Larry: Thanks, guys, for these valuable insights. I know I’m going to put some of them to use in my workplace.

Megan: Wait a minute.

Michael: Wait a second!

Larry: Not even. I have the best boss I’ve ever had, which is Joel Miller, your husband and your son-in-law. It’s a pleasure to work for him every day. But thank you for these insights.

Michael: Thank you, Larry.

Megan: Thank you, Larry.

Michael: Guys, thank you for joining us for Lead to Win, and join us next time when we’ll show you how to create a company that people are begging to join. Seriously. Until then, lead to win.